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Can you share what the clinics looked like when you first arrived at Colorado Law?
When I started, there were only four clinics. That was in 1979. We really took whatever came through the door in terms of intake. Each clinical professor worked with about 20 students. Over the years, we tried to limit the number of students, though I’m not entirely sure how we managed it at times. I remember handling close to 100 cases, which worked out to about five cases per student.
Before coming to Colorado Law, I was in the Peace Corps.

How did your time in the Peace Corps influence your career?
The Peace Corps significantly shaped my interest in public interest law. It was actually my first job outside of law school, though it happened in the middle of law school. I completed my first year at Boston University School of Law, then decided to drop out and join the Peace Corps.
This was during the Vietnam War, when there was a draft, and it was likely I would be sent to Vietnam. I wanted to serve through the Peace Corps instead. I had a roommate who was in the Peace Corps, a college roommate who joined during his first year of law school, and my twin brother joined a year before I did. My brother shared so many great stories about his experiences, and that really gave me a commitment to public service.
I loved my time there. It was a tremendous growth experience.

What did you do while serving in the Peace Corps?
I was assigned to teach in high schools, but I quickly realized that if you fulfilled your main duties, you often had the freedom to take on more. I started teaching extra classes at an orphanage with about 100 boys, where I taught art and English. I also taught an evening class for doctors and the chief of police.
You could create things and do what you wanted, as long as you accomplished what was expected of you. I taught classes of up to 120 students. It was also my first plane trip, to Iran. During that time, I realized how much I loved teaching. It was incredibly fun.

What came next after the Peace Corps?
I returned to law school and graduated in 1973. After that, I joined VISTA as a volunteer. My first assignment was with Colorado Rural Legal Services, which became my first job as a lawyer. I worked in Alamosa for about five years and loved helping people. I don’t think I’ve ever had a job that I hated.
After working as a staff attorney for about five years, a position opened up at the law school.��

How long were you at Colorado Law, and how did you see the clinics change?
I was there for about 40 years.
Over time, we added more clinics, and they became more focused on specific areas such as immigration or family law. When clinics first started, there was a strong emphasis on courtroom and trial work. As the years went on, some clinics moved away from litigation.
Personally, I continued to take everything that came in. Gradually, I developed particular expertise in family law, immigration, and disability cases, and students were still able to experience a wide range of subject matter.

What did you enjoy most about teaching in the clinics?
What I loved most were the interactions with students and learning from them. Students are incredibly bright, and people often ask if they’ve changed over the years. I don’t really think they have. They tend to be people who care deeply about public service and helping others.
Teaching was fun, and it was a great experience. Most important to me was continuing to do legal aid work and helping clients.

Do any student experiences stand out over the years?
One student who was my top student one year is now a high‑level attorney at a large firm. We were working on a family law case involving a woman who had been abused and was from Mexico. She had two children, and we were handling a custody case.
That student came to me and said, “I’ve been doing research, and I think we could help her get a green card through the Violence Against Women Act.” I told her that was a great idea. She came back with her research, and I always told my students, “You’re not my assistant, you’re my co‑counsel.” We pursued it, and it worked. It was a life‑changing outcome for the client.
I also had students who excelled in asylum cases. Immigration court can be incredibly demanding, and those cases were some of the hardest, but we handled many of them and were very successful.

Were there any particularly challenging cases?
The last case I handled before retiring was very difficult. Our client was extremely challenging and dismissed us on a Friday before a Monday hearing. She didn’t like the advice we had given her.
When we went to court, the judge told her that she wasn’t granting a continuance. The judge explained that she had competent counsel and could fire us if she wanted, but proceedings would continue either way. Ultimately, the client decided to keep us.
My students did an exceptional job, despite how difficult the situation was. Later, the judge told me that while it was a tough case, the students handled it very well.

What did you try to emphasize to students in clinic?
I always told students that this wasn’t classroom work. This was real legal practice. You couldn’t say you were too busy with other coursework. Clinic work had to be a priority, and you had to learn how to adjust everything else around it.
Students weren’t just students, they were student attorneys. I wanted them thinking and acting like lawyers.

How important do you think clinics are for law students?
I think clinic participation is incredibly important. It gives students a real understanding of what the practice of law is like. Even students pursuing business law gain practical experience far beyond lectures, readings, and papers.
Clinic students know they’re signing up for a lot of work. They’re not just there to get a passing grade, they’re there because they care.

What have you been doing since retiring?
I retired in the summer of 2019 and took some time to think about what I wanted to do next. By the fall, I began volunteering as a tutor for immigrants who are applying for citizenship. I work with an agency that provides classes in citizenship and English, and I’ve been volunteering with them for about seven years now.
It’s been the perfect extension of my immigration work, without the same level of stress. The satisfaction comes much more quickly. I work with people from all over the world and tutor them as much as needed to make sure they pass.
I’m also enjoying gardening, exercising, traveling and of course, time with my kids and grandchildren. Two of my children went to law school, and my son was actually in Professor Deborah Cantrell's clinic.��

What advice would you give clinic students?
Take full advantage of it. Put real focus and attention into your clinic work and think about what you can get out of it. Don’t coast.
Meet people in the field you’re working in. Learn from them, learn from your fellow students, and learn from your clients. I often felt like teaching was a two‑way street. I learned just as much from my students.
Be prepared. Judges are often supportive of student attorneys, but not always. Some judges will challenge you directly, and you have to be ready for that.
And remember, you’re not just a student. You’re a student attorney.